Selling an Album for $100 with Thad Cockrell - Music Production Podcast #355

Thad Cockrell is a musician, songwriter, and producer in Nashville, TN. His new album, THE KID, comes out January 26th and is available on vinyl for $100. Thad appeared on The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon after Fallon discovered his song "Swingin'" at a hardware store.

In this episode, Thad discusses the evolution of his musical style and the importance of creating from a place of authenticity. He explains how he is challenging the current state of the music industry and the devaluation of music by selling his new record for $100. We had a great conversation about the power of music and songwriting, and the enjoyment of the craft.

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Show Notes:

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Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:02.012)

Thad, welcome to the show. Great to have you here.

thad cockrell (00:05.24)

And it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Brian Funk (00:08.366)

Yeah, I've been really enjoying your music, man. Some good soulful, got like a folk country kind of thing with some rock mixed in there. And even some of the newer stuff has, I think, some new additions, right? So you're, basically the big story here is you're coming out with your new album, The Kid. And to me, it sounds like you're taking some more steps forward in your evolution of your music.

thad cockrell (00:26.731)

Right?

thad cockrell (00:35.306)

I think so. I mean, that's certainly the hope. You know, in a lot of ways, you know, I started off doing, my first albums were like old school country records. And then, you know, and then I started bringing in more of like my love for pop music. And then, you know, over time I started and I went under a band name called Leagues. And that was more like indie rock.

broke those songs down, they're really like R&B songs, most of them. And then, you know, my last album kind of had all of it on the same thing. And just with this album, I was like, okay, I want to take it like way further than I've gone. I grew up obsessed with the radio dial. I was obsessed with like, what was going on country, what was going on like R&B soul.

what was going on in the pop stations, the rock stations. I was just scrolling. And so, you know, what I did is, you know, I had this never ending craving to hear my favorite songs for the first time. And so, you know, I started working on these songs and I didn't finish till it felt like I was, it made me feel like I was feeling when I heard my favorite songs for the first time, you know?

And maybe over time when people listen to these songs, that's what they experience, you know, then they become their favorite songs. But it was an incredible experience. It's 18 songs. I've never had any more fun making anything in my entire life. Genuinely, like I, the journey of making these songs, writing, writing them, producing them.

Like, I need nothing else from it. It was just the greatest of gifts. Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:34.426)

Well, that's good. Enjoying the journey is a big part of it. And I think so many people get into making music because they love it, of course. And sometimes the work of it, the slog of touring and recording and all that stuff, releasing records and whatever it is, can suck a lot of the fun out of it. And you kind of forget to enjoy it sometimes.

thad cockrell (02:41.602)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (02:50.335)

Mm-hmm.

thad cockrell (02:56.65)

There's a lot of things that happen over time. You start over-identifying yourself with the music. You start believing that the music is you. And I think anytime that happens, the music becomes as small as you, which is in the grand scheme of things, really small. So yeah, I think, and if you're writing from a place of, or creating from a place of projection.

meaning this is how I want people to see me. Man, that's just disastrous. And I know it because I've done it, as opposed to making something because it's who you are. It comes from a place of deep culture and you're expressing yourself. It's a really different experience. When you're just expressing yourself,

Brian Funk (03:36.32)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (03:56.662)

The inner critic is very different. Yeah, I think for me, it goes more on the lines of, well, can I have more fun? Can I add fun to it as opposed to like this idea of perfection or I don't think this is any good? You know, it's like, am I done? You know, is it?

Does it look and sound and feel the way I really wanted the sound? And I think that takes a lot of time. I think it takes a lot of time. And really I think that's a lot of why I'm doing what I do is I grew up with music that there was space for ambition, and you could hear it in the production.

And I just think that people deserve incredible music. I think people deserve music from a place of ambition, not financially or trying to get famous. I mean, ambition and like trying to make something great, like really, really special. And that takes time. It takes a lot of time. You don't do that in a short amount of time and it's expensive, really. It's expensive on a lot of fronts. And I think that's really

kind of what I want to do with this music is I just wanted to give, I just, I believe that people deserve incredible music that comes from a very generous place so that when you hear it, you know, there's an aha to it. Like I think all the records that I grew up listening to, you know, I'm so glad that there was a...

a way to financially make those records. You know, it's my last album when I was in LA. There was a, I went to this producer and arranger breakfast and there was a gentleman there. I don't remember his name, but they have a guest speaker and the speaker for that day was this guy that had arranged with Quincy during the Michael Jackson days. And, and

thad cockrell (06:15.082)

you know, he gives like a 15 minute talk. And then after that, someone raises their hand and he asked the question that everybody wants to know. He's like, what was it like working with Quincy, you know, on my Jackson tracks? He's like, oh, he was like, well, he said, you know, I know that you probably think it was like me sitting down with Quincy and us writing the charts out and he and I sitting there, he's like, no, no. He was like, depending on the song,

Brian Funk (06:24.66)

Right.

thad cockrell (06:43.726)

Quincy would hire five to six to seven of his favorite arrangers and slash producers. And he would give them a budget and they would go hire their favorite bands, their favorite musicians. And he'd give them all the same guide track. And they would go make their, they would all go make their best version of that song. And then they would send it all back to Quincy. He would dump it into this like 200 channel board and he would go through.

and he would cherry pick the absolute best of everything. I was like, well.

Brian Funk (07:14.95)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (07:18.474)

Yeah, wow. Greatest hits of interpretation.

thad cockrell (07:22.499)

But it sounded like that. I think we don't hear music like that anymore because so much money is getting stuck behind the wall. There's more money now in the history of recorded music. There's more money now than ever. And there's also the least amount of money going towards making it.

Brian Funk (07:46.19)

Hmm, interesting.

thad cockrell (07:48.378)

And I just made an album very differently. Like, I mortgage my home. I'm like, I'm going to make my dream album. So it fails. OK. But maybe it doesn't. And I want to give people an opportunity to show up and support this music. I make music for people that value music as art. And if you don't value music as art, that's not who I make music for. And I think.

Brian Funk (08:01.154)

Mm-hmm.

thad cockrell (08:16.51)

You know, I surprised, I have, we started our pre-release about, about 10 days ago and it has been really incredible. Yeah.

Brian Funk (08:28.003)

There are still believers. Yeah. Nice.

thad cockrell (08:30.122)

A lot. Yeah, at a hundred dollar price point. And I think if I would have asked $50, I don't think they would have bought it. I don't, I don't think I would have.

Brian Funk (08:38.294)

Yeah, maybe that's something we should mention for anyone listening. This is one of the interesting things you're doing. Um, and maybe, you know, there's been a lot of things people in trying to figure out in the music industry, how to make this work. Um, ever since I guess really like late nineties, right? Like when things started to change up with the internet, they're streaming people just taking music, Radiohead comes out with an album, pay what you like.

thad cockrell (09:00.078)

Mm-hmm.

thad cockrell (09:04.954)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (09:05.174)

Some people are giving music away, some people are refusing to put it on the streaming services. And your approach, you're charging for the vinyl $100, which at first is certainly going to make people say, whoa, because every other record is, I guess you get like a vinyl for $25, $30 these days. But there's this philosophy you have behind it too. And I like that distinction you make. Like there are.

thad cockrell (09:14.305)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (09:34.122)

It's something that kind of occurred to me too, as we moved away from having our music come from the radio and MTV, and then you kind of picked whatever you liked in there. Now you can find anything. I could enjoy some obscure ambient pop artists from a small town in Japan that no one knows about because I can find them on the internet, which has sort of kind of divided the listening audience I think to people that want a beat.

thad cockrell (09:44.033)

Right.

Brian Funk (10:02.698)

like to have some music on and something that sounds fresh and neat and then other people that are listening to it like art, like you said. So you're really by setting this up this way, obviously the person that just wants a nice tune in the background as they do whatever they do in life is not your audience. You're definitely drawing a line.

thad cockrell (10:04.543)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (10:10.882)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (10:25.194)

I think they might be as well. I think the album that I made can be that music for people. I mean, yeah, well, you don't just... One of the things is when you buy the album, you get a vinyl. There's also a CD insert because strangely CDs are in a weird way coming back and there's a lot of people that listen to CDs, but there's also a download and a way to listen online. So we've

Brian Funk (10:31.578)

Well, maybe not the vinyl purchaser then.

thad cockrell (10:54.698)

And we just want to add as much value to those that show up for us. We just want to show up, you know, for them in ways that, you know, it feels like a no brainer. Yeah.

Brian Funk (11:07.306)

Yeah, so I'm interested in that thought behind that. So the CD also comes with the vinyl and the download as well. How did you come up with that idea? Was that a tough one to get used to? Was it something you've been thinking about a long time? Yeah.

thad cockrell (11:15.53)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

thad cockrell (11:25.586)

Long time, man, a long time. I, when I started leagues in 2000, 2013, uh, Spotify just hit the shores of, you know, the, the States here. It had been a European thing. And, and, um,

You know, what's that phone call? Houston, we have a problem. I was like, friends, artist friends, we have a problem. And the problem is it was a value problem. And I don't know anything about the music business. I'm not in the music business, but I do work on behalf of the business of music. I really believe that. And there's a distinction. And music should be valued. And you know,

Brian Funk (11:50.734)

Hehehehe

thad cockrell (12:15.178)

When I ask all of my friends who are incredible business people, very, very successful, CEOs of some of the largest companies in this country, and I say, what's the number one way to create value? Without this, there's no way to create value. And they all say the same thing. They all get it on the first answer. And that answer is scarcity. Without scarcity, there's no value.

And so, you know, I just learned so much, you know, like I told the guys then I'm like, I mean, you know, one of the things I do just personally in life, but also in how I approach kind of anything is what would you do if you couldn't fail? And, and so, you know, even then I was like, we should sell our album for $100. We should, we should sell $400 and we shouldn't put it up on Spotify. That was 2012.

Brian Funk (13:00.409)

Mm-hmm.

thad cockrell (13:14.294)

But one of the things that, there's all kinds of things that, like little nuggets that I've carried. When I first started writing, doing music in the early 2000s, when Napster and everything was online, I remember my first album was being, it was a ton of press. I was like a critic starling, lots of NPR, like a lot of press and it was glowing. And it was the first songs that I had ever written.

And I went on this one site and I could see, and this wasn't Napster, this was just one of the sites and I could see how many times my album was downloaded. And I'll have you know, like I genuinely broke down crying because if only 10% of those people would have bought it, my life would have been much different. And it wouldn't have meant that I could go.

live a life of rock and roll and drugs and excess, all it would have meant is it would have just allowed me the opportunity to focus, get better, and do more of what I was, I believe what I was put on earth to do, right? Around that same time, I read this article in Mojo Magazine, which do you know Mojo? It's like the Dwell Magazine of... It is, it is.

Brian Funk (14:33.482)

Yeah. I remember it. Is it still around? They still print it? I haven't seen it in years, but yeah, sure.

thad cockrell (14:40.998)

Yeah, neither have I. But you know, they would do these long form articles and they did this one article on one of my top five albums of all time, which is Marvin Gaye What's Going On. There was a lot of salacious information in it, but the thing that stuck with me, Brian, is uh, is you know, um, Barry Gordy, who is the head of Motown Records, uh had been selling like

Brian Funk (14:51.2)

Ah, yes.

thad cockrell (15:08.25)

multiple Platinum's on everything that he released of singles albums if he released it on Marvin Gaye it was going two to three times platinum right and He thought that What's going on was such piece of shit that he only pressed up I think it was either 200 250,000 copies of it and guess what he accidentally created

Brian Funk (15:33.754)

Carcity value. Yeah.

thad cockrell (15:35.667)

Yeah, because there was a six month waiting list to get it. And this is what's wild.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be great. I just don't know if what's going on becomes what it is, if he would have pressed up a million copies off the top. Because it allowed music to do what music does best, which is connect people. And the only way that you could listen to that music is you had to find somebody that had that album.

Brian Funk (16:03.599)

Mm-hmm.

thad cockrell (16:11.97)

Can I hear what's going on? Hey, Cash, sorry. Can I hear what's going on? And yeah, come on over. And they would sit down and they would listen it together. And that is what music does best. It creates connection. And I've just never forgotten it. And so in a lot of ways, it's like, if it worked for him, why wouldn't it? It really, if you just look at business in general, you know.

Brian Funk (16:13.899)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (16:21.295)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:28.88)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (16:42.098)

Scarcity is the way to value and without it, as soon as you put it up on Spotify, it's robbed you of any ability to create scarcity. And you know, I don't mind Spotify, I really don't. I think that's where music should end up, but I don't think that's where all music should begin.

Brian Funk (16:51.329)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (17:00.63)

You know, I love that I can listen to any song anytime I want. It is great. It's amazing. But my... Sometimes, you know? But it is also funny that I often find a hard time deciding what to even listen to. It's like too much to... But the thing I really miss and the thing first I've noticed with my own listening is if there's a new album out by even a band I love...

thad cockrell (17:06.54)

Yeah.

But do you?

thad cockrell (17:19.63)

There you go!

Brian Funk (17:30.006)

It doesn't get much of a chance. I listen to it. If it's not grabbing me, it doesn't stay on. Whereas when I was younger and I'd buy a CD with like all the money in the world I had, and I put that thing on, even if I didn't like it, maybe it'll grow on me. Let's keep trying. And some of my favorite albums to this day grew on me. They didn't strike me right away.

thad cockrell (17:52.574)

And Rainbows, it's my favorite Radiohead album. When I first bought it, you know, I gave him 10 bucks. When I first bought it, didn't get it. Didn't get it. And then one day in the middle of a run on a hot summer day, Weird Fish has come on, stops me in my tracks. I can't believe how incredible it is. I stand there and I listen to it four times in a row. And then I...

Brian Funk (18:13.923)

Hehehe

thad cockrell (18:21.034)

I start it from the top of the album and I listen to the whole thing. I agree with you. Yeah. I think that's one of the things that I get really excited about is I can't wait to hear... Do you think they're going to listen to it the same way after they pay $100 for it?

Brian Funk (18:39.594)

Oh no, like I'm going to have to really give this some attention. You know, absolutely. And probably call your friend up and be like, I just got this record, paid a hundred bucks for it. I'm supporting, you know what it does say too. It's like, I'm actively involved in supporting fads career. I'm voting for him. Like, you know, we got a big election coming up this year and everyone's going to talk about it. But our votes are, you know, drop in New York. Like it doesn't matter which way I vote.

thad cockrell (18:45.323)

Well, I did.

thad cockrell (18:58.679)

Yeah!

Brian Funk (19:08.578)

we know which way New York is gonna go, right? It's always blue. So it doesn't matter in a lot of ways, but what does matter is where you put your dollar. That's a vote every single day. And the thing I find really interesting about what you're doing is it's a very clear way to say, hey, vote for me, you know, pick me. If you like what I'm doing and you want more of it, you can really play a part in creating more of it right now.

thad cockrell (19:10.443)

Yeah, yeah.

thad cockrell (19:19.574)

all the time.

thad cockrell (19:33.706)

Yeah. If you want me to make music to make your life more beautiful, I would be humbled. I would be so honored. Please vote for me. Let me do that. It is my life's work to lend you my pen. I really believe that. And when people listen to my music, I want them, I write it for me, but I want them, I've worked at the craft of songwriting a long time.

You know, it's not like I've just put together like, you know, like a bunch of songs, I got to sell it for a hundred dollars. No, no, I spent two years, actually I spent a lifetime, like figuring out how to do this. And I just think, I don't know, I just think people deserve artists that are willing to carve out that much time. You know, I know there's this big conversation with like, you've got a tour, like man.

Listen, if we're paying attention, the Beatles taught us this lesson a long time ago. And the lesson is, they stopped touring and thank God because we now have the White Album, Rubber Soul, if they'd have been touring, we wouldn't have any of that music.

Brian Funk (20:48.685)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're right.

thad cockrell (20:52.334)

Oh, get them off the road as fast as possible. My thought is like, who's on the road right now? That's like, get them off the road. Like, go tour once every five years and let it be something special and spectacular. But you know, I have some friends, they're just on the grind. It's like, da, da. And I'm like, are you guys gonna keep doing this for 30 years? Like, you know, it's not sustainable. Like, you know, artistically it isn't.

you know, and I just don't think the crowd, you know, is.

Brian Funk (21:29.886)

Yeah, I think also that forces you into a kind of lifestyle that will affect the way you work. Now you're writing your songs on the bus, when you can find a minute and you're half asleep. It does change the energy and even, I guess, probably the world view. Your experiences are so different that it divides your attention quite a lot.

thad cockrell (21:35.191)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (21:56.01)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:00.258)

That you mentioned in Rainbows, I just want to say this. I don't know if you heard the dissect podcast. There's a podcast dissect. I don't know why I said it dissect or weird like that, but they did like a 12 episode deep dive on that album. Every single song, isolated tracks.

thad cockrell (22:07.102)

No.

Yeah.

thad cockrell (22:13.793)

Hahaha.

thad cockrell (22:24.031)

I've got to listen to this.

Brian Funk (22:26.21)

Yeah, it's really cool. It goes really deep. It'll make you appreciate it. There are things I never even knew were happening in various songs. It's inspiring. And Radiohead, too, with that record, it was quite a struggle for them to get it right. And they almost broke up. And all these things, like I think you're kind of alluding to, too, were getting to them. And Radiohead, I think, by that time, had some freedom financially to do.

a lot of interesting experiments. And also, if they're tied to the label and they have to do what they got to do and they are on tour for 17 years before they get a chance to record it, I totally agree. You'll love it, Dissect. I'll put it in the show notes too for people that want to listen. I wanted to ask you earlier. You mentioned...

thad cockrell (22:58.454)

But without that financial freedom, I don't think we get that out.

thad cockrell (23:13.354)

Right. Yeah.

thad cockrell (23:17.983)

I cannot wait to hear that.

Brian Funk (23:25.742)

about identifying with the music too much, but then you also mention expressing yourself through the music. And I think I get what you're saying, but I was wondering if you could kind of clarify the differentiation between those two ideas. It sounds very similar, but I think there's some important differences.

thad cockrell (23:28.919)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (23:48.874)

Yeah, well, my value is not based on my music as a human being. My music is an expression of who I am, but it is not the value of who I am. The value of who I am is much greater than the music I make, you know? Or I would say that for anyone, you know?

you know, a lawyer, I would say, you're not defined by your, I mean, some people would say I'm defined by my work. I would, you know, everyone can do as they choose. But, you know, for me, it has been my observation that the ones that I have found to be incredibly compelling human beings that I want to emulate, they do incredible work, but.

they do not value themselves as the work they do. They have high standards, they wanna be excellent, but at the end of the day, it's an expression of who they are, but it isn't the value, if that makes any sense. Hopefully.

Brian Funk (25:06.006)

Oh yeah, I think so, because it's easy to tie yourself up with that. If it's not working out, you get down on yourself, you get, you know, you have this kind of a...

thad cockrell (25:10.168)

Yeah.

Great.

Who am I? How do I live in the world? You know, I don't have the applause of people. How do I know? How do how do I negotiate life? If I don't have this, how do you know, like everything goes away, you know?

Brian Funk (25:19.854)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (25:31.83)

Yeah, I think that can lead to some unhealthy comparisons too, where you start saying like, well, the reason they're doing well is because of this, who they are in this way or things like that. I also like the idea of the freedom it gives you to express yourself rather than identify yourself because I like to write songs sometimes that are just fleeting.

thad cockrell (25:35.984)

Oh.

Brian Funk (25:57.634)

feelings I have that like, yeah, I sang this song. I don't really feel this way, but I can live it through the song. I can go there. I can get it out of my system maybe, or just see what it feels like.

thad cockrell (25:57.877)

Yeah!

thad cockrell (26:11.258)

It allows you to take chances. It allows you to fail It allows you to make a fool of yourself and you get back up and you'll happen you're like, you know Um, well that didn't work out so good. That's okay You know But if everything that you if what you do is based on how you How people view you and how you project yourself into the world? Oh, you would never do you would never take any risk and I just don't think you can make art without taking risk

Brian Funk (26:40.442)

Yeah, that's a good point. There's no, there is inherently kind of like a danger to it. That's.

thad cockrell (26:42.263)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (26:48.27)

Oh, I think that's what I love so much about David Bowie. I just think he was so good at putting himself in really vulnerable places and to see what might come from it. You know.

Brian Funk (26:51.856)

Mm.

Brian Funk (26:58.031)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (27:03.146)

Yeah, absolutely. Definitely reinvented himself a number of times and especially, uh.

thad cockrell (27:06.498)

Oh, yeah, most people, you know, like when he invented Ziggy Stardust, he was not that successful, you know, and then he created Ziggy Stardust and he was by far, it was the thing that brought him the most success or notoriety of anything he'd ever done. And usually that's where people stop. People stop at the applause. And my gosh, this dude was brave enough to...

Brian Funk (27:27.746)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (27:35.89)

shoot the thing that created the most success and be like, let's see what else we got.

Brian Funk (27:41.066)

Yeah. Yeah, that's not me. That's the art I made.

thad cockrell (27:45.174)

That was just, that was just, yeah, that was just an expression of who I am, but it doesn't mean it.

Brian Funk (27:48.986)

Hmm. Right, right. Yeah. Well, I'd have to imagine if you get success with any of your art, I mean, and if it's too tied up in your identity, it either be impossible to change and let go of and probably really frustrating and confining.

thad cockrell (28:05.886)

Mm-hmm.

thad cockrell (28:09.826)

Well, I think that's why a lot of times you hear people making the same albums over and over, and you hear them writing the same songs over and over again. Man, I'm like, come on, y'all, let's, you know, fuck some shit up, you know, like, do something, do something like interesting, you know, like, you know, because the truth is, is that might be the thing that

Brian Funk (28:25.396)

Yeah, right.

thad cockrell (28:39.126)

connects you with a much greater audience. Because there's a lot more people that feel vulnerable in this world than don't. And they connected to that energy. They connect to that energy. There was something about that song when I wrote Swingin', if I'm gonna go down, I'm gonna go down swinging. Well, I'll tell you where I was at when I wrote that, is I was in my late 40s and I'm still doing music and I'm like, why am I doing this? Like,

Why do I keep doing this? Like, I feel foolish, you know? Like, I should grow up, go get a job. And one of my best friends was like, you know, Thaddy, he was like, I think the world needs a, you know, a 50 year old pop star and I can't think of anyone better than you. And I was like, oh shit. I'm like, well, it's fun, but you also kind of have to get over yourself to be like, okay, I'm gonna do this with an unsynaical heart.

Brian Funk (29:14.548)

Another feeling.

thad cockrell (29:36.47)

Like maybe anything's possible. And I think there was something about that energy because you can't make beautiful art from a cynical place. Just can't do it. You can't make compelling art. I think you can make interesting art or you can, you can, you can, you can, you know, I think that, I think that people would actually like it. I think that's where a lot of music that is, you know, that's very, what's the word that I'm looking for? You're not sure if it's serious or not.

Brian Funk (29:36.886)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (30:06.914)

like satire type of stuff.

thad cockrell (30:08.066)

satire, you know, or it's not even satire. I'll think of it here in a second, but I think there was something in that energy that when Jimmy Fallon heard that song in the hardware store and he shazamed it, I think there was something about him

Brian Funk (30:13.41)

Parody?

Hehehe

thad cockrell (30:35.914)

You know, like you don't think about the pressure that comes with that job. You know, I don't know this to be true. This is complete speculation, but about a week before I went to go play the Tonight Show, I was the first person to play after the lockdown and the roots were my band, and so I was just curious how many people watched it and in the history of the Tonight Show, his ratings were the second lowest the week before. And, but.

Brian Funk (30:49.091)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (31:06.022)

Jimmy was the only person I paid attention and I watched during the entire thing because he never, he never went cynical. He never went dark. Even Colbert was going dark. It was like, he was doubling down. Like, you know, I'm not, I'm not a Trump fan, but I think when we start talking about people in a demeaning way, whether we disagree or not, um, I think if we just become the same, the opposite side of the same coin, you know, and, uh,

And I never saw Jimmy do that. But people were tuning in. People were wanting hate. They were wanting that stuff. And I think, and the money goes where people are watching. So this is all speculation. But I wonder if there was a time where Jimmy's like, they might have got the wrong guy, because I can't do that. That ain't me. I can't go cynical. Like that goes against who I am.

Brian Funk (31:58.255)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (32:03.07)

And I think the ratings were showing it. And I think he might've connected to the same energy that I was feeling. That was my version of the same thing. Maybe they got the wrong guy. I don't know if I'm supposed to be doing this. But I'm gonna show up with my own cynical heart and I'm gonna do it with everything I know how, with all the skill that I've learned. And I think that's the thing that I get sad is when people stop.

Brian Funk (32:08.058)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (32:31.926)

they stop growing, they stop evolving. They don't think that there's something on the other side of the fear. There might not be more, a bigger connection on the other side of the fear of being able to be, to risk looking the fool.

Brian Funk (32:46.838)

You know, I remember during that time there was a lot of cool stuff coming out with him having fun with this change. He was doing stuff from home. I think he had his family kind of popping in once in a while and it was kind of like rolling with it. And, you know, like, look, he's a comedian. He was a funny guy. He was... He wasn't...

thad cockrell (32:53.324)

Yeah!

thad cockrell (32:57.037)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (33:00.535)

Yeah!

thad cockrell (33:05.099)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:11.95)

social commentary, serious, heavy, you know, like maybe like say somebody like George Carlin who I love too, but you know, you want him to be angry. That's what he does. That wasn't Jimmy Fallon, like you said. So I could imagine, yeah, it was probably this... As we saw at that time, especially probably more than ever, the anger, people's frustration with situations really hyped up algorithms and got people clicking on this and watching this and dividing us all.

thad cockrell (33:13.28)

No!

thad cockrell (33:22.764)

Right.

Brian Funk (33:42.054)

and uh... if you're not doing that you know you're not in line with it but

thad cockrell (33:46.186)

Yeah, I think the other late night hosts were largely talking about politics and feeding that machine, I know Colbert was, and I just couldn't watch it. But everyone was wanting that, and so I think the ratings were like taking a massive hit because of it.

Brian Funk (34:07.738)

Hmm. It's a pretty great story you have. I don't know if everyone listening is going to know it, that Jimmy Fallon just heard your song in a hardware store one day and looked it up on his phone. And then who calls you? I'm sure it's not him that gets on the phone, right? But I don't think I'd ever believe that phone call or that email. I'd probably throw it away.

thad cockrell (34:21.063)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (34:29.499)

No.

thad cockrell (34:36.638)

Listen, if it didn't come from my manager at the time, I wouldn't have, I would have, even when he told me, even when he called, you know, he told me, I got a phone call from him January 2nd, hey, uh, so, um.

Man, I wish I would have recorded it. I really wish I would have recorded it. But it was basically, hey, you're not going to believe this, but Jimmy Fallon is obsessed with swinging. And I'm listening to it and it's not even registering as real. And he said, Jimmy Fallon is obsessed with swinging and you're going to be the first artist to play the Tonight Show, to go back up actually, since they've kicked everybody out in the lockdown and the roots are going to be your band.

Brian Funk (34:58.755)

Yeah.

I want you to know.

thad cockrell (35:24.794)

and you're going to be playing on January 26th. And...

I was like, what? And I even remember asking him, so I need to put a band together. He was like, no, the Roots are gonna be your band. I was like.

Brian Funk (35:42.531)

Pretty good band.

thad cockrell (35:46.658)

I was like, hang on, can I call you right back? He's like, yeah. I got the phone, I start like, I'm like, are you serious? He's like, yeah, get off the phone and start crying. I call him back, I'm like, tell me more. And I remember ask him, I'm like, how did you hear it? And my manager was like, oh, somebody from the label probably sent it to him. I'm like, ain't nobody, the label wasn't doing anything with it actually, which even made me more furious. And it was a...

you know, a great label or whatever those are, and a very reputable label. And then, you know, within the end of the day, they were like, oh, he was at a hardware store looking for a light switch, and he heard your song and he shazammed it, and it's been his anthem. And so, you know, what's wild is I've seen, I've seen...

So many of my friends play late night shows. I've seen countless artists play late night shows and what usually happens is at the beginning of the show, they say, and tonight's musical guest is this, they hold up the album. And the very end of the show, they're like, and here's, you know, whoever. They hold up the album, they play, and they say, you can get it here. You know, thanks so much. Have a good night. And it doesn't really move the needle. It doesn't move the needle.

Maybe it used to at some point, but it stopped moving the needle quite a while ago. And, well, I played on a Tuesday night and, Jimmy went on the Friday night before I played and for four minutes stopped the entire show and he told the roots, the story of being in the hardware store. And he's holding up my album and he's playing air guitar as the chorus hits. And he's telling them about.

you know, falling out of my album. He's like, and he's going to be on the show, you know? So, you know, it was just one of the wildest things. I did that, played the Tonight Show. He went on and talked about it all week long, every day for a week. And I've just never seen a late night host be that generous with any artist. I mean, you know, it took a minute for me to realize, you know, it's easy to think that,

thad cockrell (38:13.974)

that, you know, and maybe this is my own insecurity, like that he's being charitable, but he wasn't being charitable. He was being generous, but he wasn't being charitable. And, you know, the coolest thing about it is just how many people heard that story and it just helped so many people out, you know, because I was coming to a point in my career was like, I think I've done what I can do, you know, like, I think I'm gonna go do something else, like genuinely.

Brian Funk (38:40.747)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (38:43.778)

Like I had quit before, but not really quit. This was like, no, like I kind of knew that whatever valley there was between like artists and making a way to make things happen, to sustain a living, the valley, although it was wide, seemed to maybe possible to get across and once that happened.

it like quadrupled in size. And I was just like, yeah, I don't have that in me. And so for that phone call to come in, and then I did a eight minute interview on the Today Show two days later. And on Apple, it was the number one song in the world and number two album in the world, people buying it. And this is also what helped me come to conclusion.

to decide what I decided to do, is Spotify didn't do anything with it. Like they just couldn't have cared less. It's the number one song in the world in Spotify. And the reason why is it didn't perform well on the algorithm that Spotify has. But the reason why Jimmy liked the song is it didn't sound like the algorithm. So, you know, at some point, I think what artists don't realize is when you put your music up on a platform, you are investing in that platform.

Brian Funk (40:01.71)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (40:11.014)

And most of my friends who are all business people, like what do you decide, like what's a good X return on your investment? They're like, well, depending on the investment, but if it's like low risk, you're gonna get, I don't know, two to three, maybe three and a half, four. If it's mid-risk, you know, five to six, seven. If it's a little bit higher than that, you know, like I kind of shoot for anywhere between nine X and 12 X on my.

on any investment that I want to make. And you can go higher, but those are much higher risk. And so my thought was like, so you don't invest in a company unless you can get anywhere between six to 10x on your investment. Yeah, like, well, I've never got that from Spotify. I've never got an 8x, 9x, 10x from my... And I've invested a lot of time and money and equity.

Brian Funk (40:59.504)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (41:09.03)

And unless they want to make my return investment a priority for them, because they certainly need me, they need every artist to uphold that platform. Although it's owned by major labels, they need all the other artists to uphold it to, to legitimize their platform. Right. Um, and so I would just challenge artists to think about like, are they giving you a return on your investment? And if they're not.

Brian Funk (41:36.72)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (41:38.238)

Maybe you're being a bad investor. Maybe it has nothing to do with Spotify. Maybe it's just you're being a bad investor. I don't want to be a bad investor.

Brian Funk (41:46.422)

Yeah, I don't know if it was a different company, if it'd be any different. You know, it just happens to be.

thad cockrell (41:52.162)

Well, yeah, I don't know. I don't know that would be any different either. You know, I think one of the things that strikes me is I think that the problem with music is people treat music like a monolith and music is not a monolith. And I'll explain it this way. My first album that I ever wrote, first songs I ever wrote, first time I was ever in a studio, I recorded and made an album out of the first eight songs that I wrote.

I didn't know you weren't supposed to do that. I didn't, so I did, right? But I remember whenever it was gonna get into the CD bins in Raleigh, North Carolina at School Kids Records, and I drove 30 minutes downtown because I wanted to see it in the CD bins. And I looked and there my album was in the CD bins and I like picked it up and I was like so proud. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And then I looked over at ABCD and right next to me, my all time favorite songwriter, Bob Dylan.

and I picked his album up and his new album, and my album was 10.99, and guess what Bob Dylan's album was?

Brian Funk (42:57.514)

1099.

thad cockrell (42:58.75)

Yeah, I remember thinking then, my album was the same as Bob Dylan's.

Brian Funk (43:09.447)

That's an interesting point.

Well, that's...

thad cockrell (43:13.198)

But this is what happens with toxic living and bad behavior. Once it becomes normalized, people don't think a thing of it. And so it's like, it's really easy not to take a really hard look about like, hang on, this doesn't make, you know, like, you know, like one of my favorite chefs has a restaurant in town and he has a hamburger that's only on Wednesday nights. It's like $18, it's insane. Right across the street is a McDonald's.

Brian Funk (43:22.316)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (43:43.106)

hamburger. I can buy a 99 cent hamburger. Drive across the street, $20 hamburger. Well, the way the music business says, well, sorry, it doesn't matter what goes into it or the product or anything else. It's a hamburger, so therefore it's 99 cents.

Brian Funk (44:03.698)

It's almost like we've decided we're buying the packaging and it's the same materials, the same physical particles of matter. That's interesting. I mean, now it's just... We've gotten so used to music being free, being essentially just there. It's just everywhere.

thad cockrell (44:13.618)

No.

Brian Funk (44:30.818)

Probably very much to the detriment of the entire art form really.

thad cockrell (44:36.85)

Yeah, well, I think what people don't realize is they're not getting the music that they think they're getting. Like, like I'll explain to you this way. If I were to uh hire an interior decorator, um, and I said, uh, Listen, let me walk you through my house. I like it, but I just want would you just help me make it really special? I just want my home to be beautiful make my it just make my life so much more Beautiful and when I come home, I wanted to feel this way

and just take everything that you've ever learned about why you do what you do and can we just make my home just a lot better? Oh yeah, I'd love to." And at some point she's like, well, what's your budget? And I'm gonna be like, it's $500.

thad cockrell (45:22.262)

What? 500 dollars for the whole house? Yeah! Go do it!

thad cockrell (45:33.27)

this is what we're doing music. This is what we're doing music. We're like, hey, go make the world a more beautiful place. I take music seriously. I really do it, save my life, save my life growing up. It's the only thing that gave me an emotional connection. Well, I think there's a lot of other young kids and people whose life need to be, including mine, need to be saved by music, the way that only music can do. And, you know, what a trick to devalue it. What a...

Brian Funk (45:55.982)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (46:02.818)

fucking horrible trick, you know, and I think people want to be a part of some small rebellion and to me a hundred dollars Isn't a bad buy-in to get into the arena to see what might happen Because I don't plan to sell a few of these. I think I think we're actually gonna sell

Brian Funk (46:13.838)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (46:22.002)

surprising amount. And hopefully what ends up happening is other artists, bigger artists, are going to be like, he did what? He sold how many albums for $100? Stop the bus. Stop the machine. And my thing is, you know what? This album will end up on Spotify at some point in a couple years. It will.

Brian Funk (46:37.067)

Stop the machine. Yeah.

thad cockrell (46:51.79)

great. It might sound different. I might put up a completely different version. Why wouldn't I? You know? That's the version, you know? Or maybe it gets to the place where I'm like, alright, let's give it to the public. You know, a lot of people are like, well, you know, what about the people you miss? Well, the truth be told is, if you aim for everyone, you what?

Brian Funk (46:57.889)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (47:15.284)

You are, you're getting nobody here.

thad cockrell (47:16.786)

Exactly. So that's not a carrot. To me, that's a noose. You know? That's... You know, I think whoever said no one will ever sell a million copies of a novel anymore had a lot to gain by that happening. And I don't know. What if we do? What if we do sell a million copies at a hundred bucks? Wouldn't that change? Not just for me. I don't want to solve a problem just for me.

Brian Funk (47:24.023)

Right?

Brian Funk (47:38.042)

Hmm. Heh.

thad cockrell (47:46.154)

you know, because then the problem's wasted on me. I want young artists to be valued in art because I believe the world needs great music. And you can't do that. You can't do that with the absolutely tiny amount of money that is being trickled to them in the same way that I couldn't ask an interior designer to make my home more beautiful on a budget of $500. I might get a room repainted, one.

Brian Funk (47:57.306)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (48:15.891)

I'll tell you what color to paint it.

thad cockrell (48:18.062)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (48:25.583)

Yeah, it's a lot of good points, you know, and it would, you know, we are getting a lot of, we're seeing how the mediums change music, how songs are now being written to everything thrown at you at once so that the two and a half seconds you'll give it on TikTok will be enough to catch you instead of more of an experience. I really do miss those days of...

thad cockrell (48:43.948)

Right.

Brian Funk (48:51.414)

You know, my friend just got the new record from whatever band we love. And the only way to hear it is to go over their house and listen and hang out and experience it and sit with it.

thad cockrell (49:01.534)

Yeah, man. Me too. Yeah. I want my fans to be the DJs and the A&R and the taste people and the tastemakers. I want my fans to be that. I don't want some stranger to be that. I want my fans. Yeah. I want the people that love my music. I want them to be the people like, oh my God, I can't believe I get to play this music for my friends because they will not be able to listen to it.

Brian Funk (49:16.992)

Well, it's not even a person anymore.

thad cockrell (49:32.002)

And we're also going to send it to radio stations because, you know, like, you know, them playing a song that everyone can hear on Spotify doesn't really give them any scarcity either. So why not give them something like, hey, you know, like I grew up listening to the sound of the radio dial, the sound sounds like it, and not just like, but on the production end of it too. It's like, well, what's the only thing you heard on the radio? Hits.

thad cockrell (50:03.176)

Let's make an 18 song album that sounds like a bunch of hits. That's fun. That's funny and it's fun. And who knows? Who knows?

Brian Funk (50:11.024)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:18.042)

I was watching the documentary you have on your site, kind of like about 20 minute film, and you said something that stuck out to me when you were talking about the idea of enjoying and being enjoyed. And I guess what you're doing here is bringing that out in a lot of ways. Because

thad cockrell (50:23.211)

Mm-hmm.

thad cockrell (50:32.599)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:46.334)

Other, you know, you're going to try to enjoy it. You're going to try to spend some time with it. But I just think that's just a great point to be. Um, maybe I'll let you explain the philosophy a little bit, but just. This idea of like enjoying people and having them enjoy each other's presence and company.

thad cockrell (51:05.89)

And I think it grew up from a lack of really. And I could either pain that's not transformed is transferred and I know I probably spent the younger part of my life transferring and at some point I had to like, man, that's not the life I wanna live, it's not the world I wanna create. And I think that there's a lot of duty to love. I love you and there's a lot of duty.

that comes with that. But I think sometimes what means more is just to be liked. You know, like you've been around someone that you genuinely, you can tell they just like you, you wanna spend as much time with that person as possible. It feels so good. Yeah, man. And I think a lot of times like husbands and wives, it's like, oh, I know my husband likes me or loves me.

Brian Funk (51:47.854)

you love but you don't like or... Oh yeah, yeah. It feels good. It feels good to be liked and enjoyed, yeah.

thad cockrell (52:04.31)

But yeah, but do you think he likes you? No, I don't. I wish sometimes I just felt like my husband liked me more than loved me and vice versa. And I think there's a lot of kids in this world who knows their parents love them, but they don't feel like their dad likes them or their mom likes them. Like man, like wouldn't that be a powerful thing for your kid to be like, holy shit, my dad likes me. You know? So, you know, create the world we wanna be.

Brian Funk (52:29.619)

Mm. Right.

thad cockrell (52:34.006)

we want to have, it's our world. You know, it was our parents' world. It's not any longer, it's ours, you know? And so, you know, I just want to make the world a more beautiful place and from a place of love. And I want to have a hell of a lot of fun doing it.

Brian Funk (52:54.27)

Yeah, to get that feeling like they enjoy me. You know, it's paying attention. It's soaking it up. It's appreciating the quirks, the funny things, laughing at the jokes or the just mannerisms of a person and in pure enjoyment. You don't always get that and it can very well be.

thad cockrell (53:02.815)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (53:21.762)

You know, people really do care for each other, but a lot of times, who knows what, the pressures of life, the running around, the stress, being tired, and a lot of times that stuff does get forgotten. It gets left off the table.

thad cockrell (53:25.206)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (53:39.631)

Here's a question. Do you think it's possible to enjoy and judge at the same time?

Brian Funk (53:51.062)

Yeah, well, judging is a critical stance. You know, it's a, it's an oppositional thing. Um, and it's, uh, it's very easy to slip into, but I also, I also think it really produces kind of like a mirror effect because when you're, one, you know, something really stands out for me. A moment is when I first started.

thad cockrell (54:05.379)

Oh.

Brian Funk (54:21.038)

dating my wife. We were hanging out with a bunch of friends and it was late into a Saturday night of a little chaos and mid-20s madness. One of my buddies had his band's album on and was just singing it at the top of his lungs. There was a party and I was like, that's kind of lame. Come on. But she said, don't judge.

thad cockrell (54:31.212)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (54:40.835)

Hahaha

Brian Funk (54:50.014)

And I was like, yeah, because you know what? I know how he feels. I know that feeling of like, yes, we did this. I love this. It's fun. And it, it went from this kind of like critical thing, which I think really was a reflection of me being uncomfortable with that kind of stuff into this, like it turned into a really beautiful moment where like, it's great to see a person enjoying their work, enjoying. And that's, um,

thad cockrell (55:04.735)

Mmm. Yeah, wow.

thad cockrell (55:15.998)

100%? Listen, I, do you have any children? Well, I'm sure you've had friends with kids who have made a drawing for you or you've seen them make a drawing for their dad. Have you ever seen a child go up to their dad and be like, your dad, I don't know what I think about it. It's kind of good. Maybe I can do a little bit better.

Brian Funk (55:22.71)

No children. No. Yeah, yeah.

thad cockrell (55:42.674)

A child is never given a parent or a friend a picture like that. It's always they run and they're like, oh, you, I made this, you know? And yo, man, we need to bring that shit back as fast as possible.

Brian Funk (55:53.086)

Right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (56:00.122)

Hmm, absolutely, yeah.

thad cockrell (56:04.074)

Like, in me, I need to bring that back as fast as possible, you know? And if people want to make fun of me because I'm like, you know, enjoying... I didn't, like, I'm not sure, like, you know, even these songs that I wrote, I didn't write these songs. I participated in it, but like, there's not one song that I, that when I was, I barely remember writing any of them.

Brian Funk (56:09.62)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (56:32.938)

You know, like, that's the song, What If? Like, where did that come from? I was like, it felt like I was watching it come down and I was just like, okay, that's, wow, oh my God. Oh, good. You know, like, I didn't sit there and craft it over, you know, like, I just, I just got luck. I just got to experience it. So to criticize it would make it as small as me.

Brian Funk (56:45.262)

Hmm. Yeah.

thad cockrell (57:01.682)

When I play it for my friends or share with the world, it's more like, look what happened. Not look what I did. Look what happened. And I think that's what kids, they only create from look what happened.

Brian Funk (57:09.59)

Mm. Right, right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (57:18.362)

Hmm. Right. Yeah, they're not getting... Well, the arm is a little disproportionate to the other one, so... Like we do often when we present our artists, well, you know, the drums are a little weird today. I wasn't playing them right, but if you... You know, you get the... We like apologize for it beforehand.

thad cockrell (57:26.3)

Right, yeah.

thad cockrell (57:40.214)

Yeah, and I think it goes back to our earlier conversation as we over connect our value to the thing that we do. You know, it represents who we are. You know? Yeah.

Brian Funk (57:56.461)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (58:00.31)

Yeah, that's a good point. It's when you get in that judgmental thing. And this is, I mean, during the songwriting process, this happens all the time when you're, you're working on something. I might be playing some chords or something. And I got caught as kind of cool. I like it. And then five minutes later, I'm saying, well, that's just the one, four, five. And that's been done a lot of times now. And, uh, the critic comes out and then the enjoyment version of me is gone.

thad cockrell (58:13.111)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (58:29.738)

Yeah, and anytime my thought comes with that or I hear any verse like, oh, that's cliche. You're like, yeah, but did you put drums on it? Yeah. You're like, that's been done before too. Oh, let me guess. You put bass on it too? Yeah. Okay. Oh, now hang on. Guitar? Yeah. Oh, really breaking? Really pushing. Get over yourself, man. You love it, you know.

Brian Funk (58:43.438)

Yeah, right.

Brian Funk (58:51.847)

Really pushing the envelope here, buddy.

thad cockrell (58:58.582)

which is so fun, the name of the album is The Kid. And a lot of times when I didn't know what to do, I would ask the song what it wanted. And if I didn't know, I would literally ask. I would ask my inner child to be like, well, what do you want? And sometimes it was like, you know, I'm like, what if, you know, instead of like regular bass, there's like this like massive synth bass in the middle of this ballad. And it's like, dude, I want like...

huge synth bass, it just goes BLEEEEH and I'm like, that's fucking I'm like, alright, let's see what happens and I start laughing, I'm like it's actually pretty funny, that's pretty good I'm like, hang on, and then I take my craft that I've learned, my production, over all these years I'm like, okay, how can I make that make sense? alright, we need this sound, it can't be that it needs to have some of the edge-offs it needs to

Brian Funk (59:30.298)

Alright.

Brian Funk (59:41.731)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (59:45.902)

Mm-hmm.

thad cockrell (59:56.418)

do this, you know, I do like it though, because what it does is it creates power of the opposites and you can't make great art without power of the opposites. And so then all of a sudden you work on it for an hour or so and then you do it and you're like, holy shit, I wouldn't have ever thought of that because I would have thought of it from ego. Like what would have made me look good? And the kid in me was like, this would be fun. My God.

Brian Funk (01:00:16.494)

Mm-hmm, right. Right, right, right.

Brian Funk (01:00:22.819)

Right.

Yeah, the kid. What's such a great way to think about it a lot of times. What would the kid like to do? What would be cool? Yeah, put that in there. Yeah, all right. This is a dinosaur sound. Do it.

thad cockrell (01:00:26.186)

He wins! The kid, man.

thad cockrell (01:00:33.53)

What does the kid wanna do?

And the kids friends with everyone. The kids cool with everyone.

Yeah. And you're like, what do you mean a dinosaur sound? You're like, well, you're, you know, however old you are, you're like, well, I don't know. You've been doing this for, help me. And you're like, okay, well, all right. Dinosaur sound. What would that sound? Yeah. And then, and then you get to use all your skill to make that happen. And man, that's, to me, that becomes like, embodied, integrated, like really.

Brian Funk (01:00:54.614)

I have craftsman. Your turn.

thad cockrell (01:01:10.882)

making stuff from like a really beautiful, pure, cool space. Which I think, you know, a lot of times when we hear first albums of people, it's so amazing, it's because they were in that space. And so, you know, we go back to David Bowie. I think David Bowie was just always trying to get him back in that space. I know I've never made an album the same way because I always want to try.

Brian Funk (01:01:16.91)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:01:28.823)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:01:39.502)

to make music from that space.

Brian Funk (01:01:42.218)

You could almost picture the kid and David Bowie saying, what if I was a spaceman alien guy with like this crazy hair, neither male nor female, you know, just that's who I am on stage. That's like a five-year-old at work and then the artist comes in and pulls it to the other.

thad cockrell (01:02:02.094)

Or David Bowie shows up with a version of it and then the kid's like, no, I want a costume. And he's like, oh shit, what's a costume? Okay. Off to find a costume he goes.

Brian Funk (01:02:08.175)

Yeah, right.

Brian Funk (01:02:14.418)

Yeah, that's cool. I mean, it's play music, right? It's play, let's play music.

thad cockrell (01:02:18.686)

It's play. Ryan, I say it, you nailed it. I say it all the time. It's called playing music. It's play, it's play. It's not working music. Yeah, it's not, you know, I play music. I play, I get to play for a living.

Brian Funk (01:02:28.646)

Right, it's not stressing music.

Brian Funk (01:02:33.836)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:37.97)

Well, that's the thing too. I see this a lot. I see it in myself too. I teach a class for Berklee Online Sampling with Ableton Live. Some people are really trying to make this their life. They really want it. It's so important and it stresses them the hell out. If you wanted to be this stressed out, get in your cubicle.

thad cockrell (01:03:03.458)

Yeah!

Brian Funk (01:03:04.538)

Get in your 80 hour a week corporate whatever you want to do. That's a safer bet. You'll make the money there. But if you, if the bonus of doing this is that it's supposed to be fun. Like don't forget that.

thad cockrell (01:03:06.134)

Yeah, what are you doing?

thad cockrell (01:03:18.734)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just have a, hang on, someone's... Yeah, I agree. I didn't know you, so you teach classes, especially at Berkeley, that's gotta be really interesting. That there, that's a...

Brian Funk (01:03:36.946)

I love it. Yeah. And I tell you what, I don't know. I hope they don't hear me say this. I don't know how I'm there in that position sometimes.

thad cockrell (01:03:46.326)

Well, that means that you're probably the perfect person. Because the person that knows, you know, ugh.

Brian Funk (01:03:56.486)

I've been aware that there's a lot to learn that I've not by any means figured it out.

thad cockrell (01:04:02.686)

Yeah, what do you find most enjoyable about it, Brian?

Brian Funk (01:04:07.838)

Well, first of all, I'd learn a ton. You know, I learned so much by listening what people do and then giving feedback makes you look at things through different perspective, which you can take to your own music, but I love the people. That's really it. I love all the different personalities that come in and what I can take away from them through conversations and sharing music. It just...

thad cockrell (01:04:10.018)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:04:17.967)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:04:35.042)

It's the community thing. It's kind of like what we were saying before about sitting down and listening to the record together compared to when I just stream it on my own in my AirPods as I'm raking leaves or something. It's that togetherness. Because again, strangely these days, if you're not playing in a band, which I do have a band to play with, but a lot of music making is solitary now.

thad cockrell (01:04:47.926)

Yeah.

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:05:02.219)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:03.254)

You can do it on your computer all alone. And it's, sometimes you like need people to nerd out about with it and just, hey, is this hard for you too? Oh, good. So I'm not a weirdo. Like you struggle with it sometimes too. And okay, the commiseration, the, and then just, yeah, all that stuff is, that's what I like the most. If it didn't have that element, I probably wouldn't be doing it.

thad cockrell (01:05:05.73)

Sadly.

Brian Funk (01:05:33.083)

It would be much more a job.

thad cockrell (01:05:33.178)

Yeah, man, I think that's one of the things that I loved about making this album was having other artists in the room. And in a lot of ways, when I heard that story about how Quetzee produced the

thad cockrell (01:06:02.298)

smaller budget. And in a lot of ways, that's what I did. I would bring in a guitar player and I'd had the tracks built out enough. So I would tell them what I'm doing and I'd say, hey, I'm going to throw you five songs, play guitar on three, play bass on one, even if I already had bass on it.

because every guitar player, which they all have this fascination of being a bass player. And then I would put them on an instrument that's not there, like on a synth or something, a keyboard or even drums. Like I'm not a drummer. Yeah, we'll play it. And it was so interesting that I would, you know, when you listen to this album, you're listening to so many different...

musicians because I'm like taking the thing that they were they just absolutely made us all start laughing, you know. And you know, it might be a guitar player, I'm just the verse for one song and the chorus might be completely somebody else and there might be a bass, you know, it's so but it was so fun. It was just it was just the greatest time ever.

Brian Funk (01:07:28.078)

Mm. That's cool. I gotta-

thad cockrell (01:07:29.29)

Yeah. And I think what I would have missed out on is the mistakes, quote unquote, that we all, we were like, that turned our head and we were like, what was that? And without me being in a room, I wouldn't have had that. I wouldn't have had the, oh my God, that's actually better than what we like. Hang on. Let's switch this up real quick. I love it doing that better.

Brian Funk (01:07:42.766)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:07:54.699)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:58.442)

Yeah, when you're alone, you're focused on what you're trying to get. And sometimes you don't realize that your miss was better than your hit. You know, like you went down that wrong way. Sometimes you need something like, wait, play that again. Play it that way. Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:08:09.619)

Oh, so well said. So well said. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, when I write friends with my songs, it's the things that they say something, and they just keep sputtering it past. And I'm like, your song was like two sentences ago. Here it is. Here's your chorus. When did I say that? I'm like,

You literally said that exact same thing two seconds, like two, like two minutes ago. They're like, oh my God.

Brian Funk (01:08:39.906)

came out of your mouth.

Brian Funk (01:08:45.126)

Right, that's funny. You actually just said something that caught my ear. I forget what the term is, but you said, write friends with my songs. I thought that was a fun way to look at it too. It's kind of... that's how it came out. It's a fun way to kind of reverse it.

thad cockrell (01:08:54.174)

Write friends with my songs? Did I say that? That actually is good. I actually do. I sit down and I write friends with my songs. Yeah. Maybe that's a different, maybe we do that off screen.

Brian Funk (01:09:06.278)

Yeah, there's something to be said about that.

Brian Funk (01:09:13.606)

Yeah. What is the power of opposites? You mentioned that earlier. You said you can't write songs without the power of opposites.

thad cockrell (01:09:19.639)

Oh, the power of opposite.

Well, I don't think you can make great art without the power of opposites. I think art, when you get into it... Like, here's a really simple, easy, modern version of this. Tyler, the creator, right? You take a babushka. A babushka is this Russian hat. It's black. It's menacing. And he took this black, menacing Russian hat and he turned it pink.

Brian Funk (01:09:25.817)

of art maybe said yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:54.4)

Mm-hmm. Right.

thad cockrell (01:09:56.122)

That's power of opposites. Yeah. You, you, you know, like here's what's strange about my album. If, if, if you were to say, Thad, what's your favorite band growing up? But it was only based on the first 30 years of my music listening.

Brian Funk (01:09:57.722)

It changes the vibe, yeah.

thad cockrell (01:10:20.882)

It was only based on, my favorite band wasn't based on ego. What I wish, what I would like to be able to say it was. Like what I'd probably like to be able to say it was, was like radiohead or something like that, right? But if it was just based on time listened to and it was black and white, you listen, well, it says right here, you listen to this band way more than anyone else. That band for me, and nobody comes close as the Eagles. I'm obsessed. The songwriting, the production, the harmonies, all of them, I'm obsessed, right?

Still am. Now, if you were to take the second 20 years, it might not be, or the second 15 years, you know, I mean, 30 years being from like zero to 30, and then say up to like probably 45, it wouldn't be as clear of a front-run winner as say like the Eagles from the time I was like probably 12 to like 30, but it would probably be Kanye or Kanye-Jason,

Kanye's music or the music that he worked on. Definitely. I'm just, I think he's brilliant, brilliant. And so I was like, interesting. What does it sound like at the intersection of Eagles Boulevard and Kanye Avenue? And what's wild is if you listen to my album, the low end,

Brian Funk (01:11:37.754)

Thanks for watching.

That's a fun way to think, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:48.384)

Mm-hmm.

thad cockrell (01:11:49.41)

Guess who wins the low end fight? Kanye. But the songwriting, the harmonies, midrange on up.

Brian Funk (01:11:51.455)

Yeah, yeah, I could hear that.

thad cockrell (01:12:00.311)

Seagulls.

Brian Funk (01:12:01.909)

Hmm.

thad cockrell (01:12:03.85)

Now you wouldn't listen, you wouldn't, when you listen to my album, you wouldn't be like, oh, this sounds like Kanye and Eagles. No, it actually, you, you actually never come to that conclusion, but it was the power of the opposite is the thing that I think like interesting is, is always better than good. Nobody gets up. If you, if we were to add a restaurant and

Brian Funk (01:12:15.481)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:12:29.258)

And I think that's what it creates. It creates something that's interesting, an interesting dynamic, right? But if you and I were sitting at a restaurant and someone came in like, yo, Brian and Thad, there's something really good outside. You should go check it out. We'd be like, that's weird. We'd keep eating. But if someone came up to us and said, yo, Brian and Thad, there's something really interesting outside, you should go check it out. What do you think we would do?

Brian Funk (01:12:53.866)

Interesting?

thad cockrell (01:12:56.942)

No, that's exactly what I was going to say. I'd be like, interesting? This is only going to take 30 seconds. We'll decide for ourselves. And there's a strong chance, and what I mean strong, this dude, I'm walking outside for interesting. Not good. And I think the power of the opposite creates an opportunity for interesting.

Brian Funk (01:13:03.842)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:13.294)

Hmm.

Yeah, that's a great point.

Brian Funk (01:13:21.338)

Hmm. You know, if you want to feel bad about any of your musical abilities, you can go on YouTube and find like a four and a half year old kid that's like a run circles around you at anything you want, right? Like, like any skill and any musical instrument, right? But a lot of like the virtuosity you can see is

thad cockrell (01:13:38.5)

Oh, yeah, yes, yes!

Brian Funk (01:13:49.81)

Sometimes it's interesting for how virtuosic it is, but it's, yeah, it's not always interesting. I've never really been super drawn to that for the sake of it because it's just so good. You're so good at the instrument. Like it's cool. And yes, of course, like you can, but interesting. It's always caught me more, you know, than as a guitar player, I always, I preferred to listen to like Kurt Cobain over

thad cockrell (01:13:53.108)

Right.

thad cockrell (01:14:13.543)

All in.

Brian Funk (01:14:19.31)

like ying-gwee, malon steam or something like that. Neelang is one of my favorites.

thad cockrell (01:14:22.17)

Oh, or Neil Young. I would take Neil Young to the car solos on Crazy Horse where he's doing the feedback and he literally looks like he's riding a, like, a,

Brian Funk (01:14:33.502)

Yeah, he's doing that Neil stomp. Like, that's part of the guitar right there, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:44.846)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:14:51.498)

My my and thank god there's room for both You know

Brian Funk (01:14:54.366)

Yeah, sure. And I didn't pick on Ying Wei. He's just one of the first virtuosic guitars that popped in my head. But the point being like, yeah, I'm more interested in like that weird sound, that tone, that expression. You know, when Neil's playing that one note that's really a million notes, stomping his foot.

thad cockrell (01:14:59.622)

No! Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:15:17.526)

I have a guitar solo on my album. That's me playing. I'm not a guitar player. And I could have got it. I mean, I had insanely great, I had Corey Wong play on my album. So I mean, like I have access to the best guitar players in the world, especially being here in Nashville. Like, you know, and I took this ridiculous long guitar solo on the song called, Someone to Talk To. And it was literally my thank you letter to Neil Young.

It's long and it's so ridiculous, but I love it so much. Yeah, it's my art, you know?

Brian Funk (01:15:53.178)

Nice. Yeah. Well, there's a guy that's never done anything unless he's really felt it. You know, if he's not feeling it, it doesn't happen. What an ability he has to just go there. I've gotten to see him a few times in concert and even in the biggest venues, Madison Square Garden, it's just like, Neil is in the world of his music.

thad cockrell (01:16:02.818)

Completely.

Brian Funk (01:16:21.806)

whatever, 20,000 people here and he is there. He's left. Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:16:27.994)

He is someplace else. We're watching him go deep into a portal and we're like, oh my God. Like this dude isn't in the room. I mean, his body's in the room, but he's elsewhere, you know?

Brian Funk (01:16:36.577)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:16:39.916)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:16:44.778)

Yeah. Then he has that ability to pull you right along with him. It's one of the things I love about him is it's just so real all the time. It's not always good. There's some Neil Young records I don't have a lot of fun listening to, but he's in it. He's still there. He's...

thad cockrell (01:16:49.323)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:16:56.128)

No!

thad cockrell (01:17:03.178)

But you know, I don't think he makes Harvest Moon without making the weird, the weird other music. He does not make Harvest Moon without making what's the trance, you know, the...

Brian Funk (01:17:10.955)

Yeah.

Right.

Brian Funk (01:17:21.046)

Yeah. The 90s, a couple of them. I think a lot of that, too, was the kind of screw his label over. If I read correctly, he's kind of like, you need albums? Here we go. Which is another great expression. Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:17:29.55)

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, because they wanted him to make another harvest. And he was like, no, I don't wanna make another harvest. So he kept giving that and then that. And then they dropped him. And as soon as they dropped him, he made harvest. Which is basically a more beautiful and better version of harvest. It's so rebellious.

Brian Funk (01:17:50.063)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:17:55.494)

Yeah, yeah, he's, you get in the real thing with him. And I love that. That's interesting.

thad cockrell (01:17:57.065)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:18:01.238)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:18:07.402)

For sure. For sure. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:18:13.066)

So the new album that's coming out, I think we'll have this out just in time for the release. Is it the 26th if I'm not mistaken? The Kid on the 26th. Now is it only available on vinyl at first? Is there other ways? Is it?

thad cockrell (01:18:20.566)

The 26th, January 26th. Yeah, man, yeah.

thad cockrell (01:18:31.706)

Well, I mean when you buy a vinyl you get a way to listen online you get a download and you get a CD So, you know people like well, I don't you know Like what if I just want the download if you just wanted the download it's still ninety nine dollars. It's still a hundred You know Yeah That's it

Brian Funk (01:18:53.369)

Okay, that's it. Any videos, any singles, anything like that? Just, you gotta buy in.

thad cockrell (01:19:00.93)

Uh, it's just that man. I don't like, I have spent all my money. I don't have, you know, like, I'm at the end of my rope, you know, at some point, if enough people show up, I'm like, okay, let's make a beautiful world. Like, let's make it, let's make an amazing world. Like I can do that, you know, let's, but let's do it together, you know? Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:19:20.79)

Right. Hey, that's cool. I read a quote today, and I'm forgetting who said it, but it was something about taking chances in life and how important that is. And you take that big leap only to find out, like the universe rewards that. This is the.

thad cockrell (01:19:37.382)

My chances in people man, I believe in people. I'm not taking a chance on me, I'm taking a chance on people. I just believe in people.

Brian Funk (01:19:40.358)

sub it.

Brian Funk (01:19:45.802)

says if you take that leap you'll find out that the ground is covered in cotton and feathers or something like that. I'm totally messing it up but that the fact that you gotta you gotta take big steps to make big things happen.

thad cockrell (01:19:55.714)

Yeah?

thad cockrell (01:20:01.258)

Yeah, yeah. And hopefully it creates a path for a bunch of other artists. And I think it will help people that aren't musicians just to show the importance of, if you think buying an album at 20 bucks is gonna be enough, unfortunately it isn't. Probably if it's $20, you probably need to buy six copies and give them to friends. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:20:20.387)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:20:26.422)

Yeah, well especially those 20 bucks, I don't know how many dollars the average artist is seeing of that anyway.

thad cockrell (01:20:33.414)

Right, right, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:20:36.578)

Hey, I hope it shakes things up a little. Again, it seems like a path that's not sustainable. And the news out now, I think Spotify is not going to pay artists unless they reach a certain number of streams, which cuts out 99% of independent artists.

thad cockrell (01:20:47.351)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:20:57.28)

Right.

thad cockrell (01:21:01.9)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:21:03.418)

You know, it's a really cool time we live in. You can get your music out. You can do these things, but...

Again, this idea of the value, though, that's important too. Because otherwise, you're just going to get people that kind of do it for fun once or twice, and that's all we have.

thad cockrell (01:21:15.384)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:21:21.874)

That's not the music we need in the world. I think people deserve really incredible, amazing music and it takes a lot of time and energy and money to do that. And I think the people are the greatest RAA and our people. I think the people are the ones that know more than the labels. If the labels were, you know, their picking rate,

who they choose, you know, as opposed to like, how much they invest in and how many work out to how many they sign. They would never even make it on a professional team, a baseball team. Like the batting average would be well below, like well below, like, like. The batting average would be like 3%. This, and that just tells you that they're not good at their job.

Brian Funk (01:22:14.883)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:22:18.783)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:22:21.45)

You know, but I believe people are.

Brian Funk (01:22:23.894)

Yeah, well you know what you like, right? You know, if you like it, you're...

thad cockrell (01:22:25.598)

Yeah, yeah. And when people are like, I don't really know, I'm like, yeah, you do. I don't really, I'm not a music, I don't really, I'm not a music, you know, I don't really know what I like. I'm like, oh yeah, you do. You definitely do. Exactly. 100%.

Brian Funk (01:22:37.058)

Yeah, well you'll know it when you hear it anyway. It's cool, it's got a good story.

thad cockrell (01:22:46.326)

Well, thank you for doing this and helping me get it out there, man. I really appreciate it. I appreciate the time we got to spend together. This has been and just spending some time with you, Brian. I've really, really enjoyed it.

Brian Funk (01:22:58.01)

Thanks, yeah, me too. Really fun talking to you, a lot of great points, took some notes. Listen man, I hope you sell a million of them. And I hope the tour buses around the world hit the brakes and people say, wait, what just happened? And maybe we rethink this a little bit. That would be amazing. That'd be quite a contribution to the musical landscape on your part.

thad cockrell (01:23:12.35)

Yeah. Yeah, why not? That'd be fun.

thad cockrell (01:23:22.123)

I'd be honored. I'd be honored. Have a great afternoon.

Brian Funk (01:23:26.818)

Very cool. Well, we can send people to your site, right? It's just that. I got it right here, thatadcockrail.com. I'll put that in the show notes, of course. You can see that documentary I mentioned earlier. And here's some music. And then, of course, get the album.

thad cockrell (01:23:31.97)

Yeah.

at coprail.com. Yep. Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:23:47.314)

And sign up on my email list. We have a lot of fun with that. We send out a weekly email and it's, I mean, I know you're like, email list. I'm like, it's actually, we have an incredible time. We have like, it's, I put a lot of energy into it.

Brian Funk (01:24:03.746)

That's good. You know, there, I would say about 999 out of 1,000 emails I get is junk, but there are a few email lists that I do really appreciate and look forward to. So if it's done right and there's value to it, then I could see that. If you're having fun with it, then it's probably worth checking out.

thad cockrell (01:24:16.225)

Yeah.

thad cockrell (01:24:21.322)

It's wild, we have over a 90% open rate.

Brian Funk (01:24:24.826)

Oh wow. Yeah, that's not normal. Yeah, it must be interesting.

thad cockrell (01:24:29.687)

No, no. It's pretty cool.

Brian Funk (01:24:36.706)

Nice. Cool, man. Well, thanks so much. And thank you to you, the listener. Take care.

podcastBrian Funkpodcast, music production podcast, thad cockrell